Yigiye kuri buruse y’impunzi, ukuri kw’impamo yavugiye muri BBC-Ikiganiro na Dr Murigande

Yanditswe na Twarabanye Venuste
Kuya 3 Ukuboza 2019 saa 10:24
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Dr. Charles Murigande ni umugabo ufite ibigwi bikomeye muri Politiki. Yabaye Ambasaderi w’u Rwanda mu Buyapani, Umunyamabanga Mukuru wa FPR -Inkotanyi, Minisitiri muri Minisiteri zinyuranye zirimo iy’Ububanyi n’amahanga, iyari iyo gutwara abantu n’Itumanaho, iy’Uburezi n’iy’ibikorwa by’Inama y’Abaminisitiri.

Uyu mugabo ufite imyamyabumenyi y’ikirenga mu mibare, ni ikimenyabose mu burezi bw’u Rwanda kuko yayoboye iyari Kaminuza Nkuru y’u Rwanda, ubu akaba ari mu buyobozi bwa Kaminuza y’u Rwanda nk’Umuyobozi mukuru wungirije ushinzwe iterambere.

Mu kiganiro kirambuye na RBA, Dr. Charles Murigande yasobanuye urugendo rwamugejeje ku mpamyabumenyi y’ikirenga mu mibare akesha amahirwe ya buruse ebyiri zatanzwe n’Ishami ry’umuryango w’abibumbye ryita ku mpunzi (UNHCR), ku banyafurika babiri akabonamo imwe.

Yagarutse kandi kuri byinshi birimo impamvu abantu batinya imibare, abarimu bigisha ibyo batazi, uburyo kaminuza y’u Rwanda izubaka izina n’iby’ukuri kw’impamo yigeze gutangaza ku ngabo z’u Rwanda, ubwo yari abajijwe niba ziri muri Ituri muri Congo.

Ikiganiro kirambuye na Dr Charles Murigande

Dr. Murigande, mwize imibare mukora iyo mirimo yose, nizo zari inzozi zanyu?

Dr Murigande: Oya! Ntabwo ari zo zari inzozi zanjye zo kuba najya mu mirimo ya Politiki, navuga ko imirimo ya Politiki nayijyanywemo n’uko igihugu cyacu cyari gifite ibibazo numva nanjye nk’umunyarwanda nagira icyo ntanga.

Naho ubundi ndi mu mashuri yisumbuye, numvaga nshaka kuba muganga, hanyuma ndangije mu mwaka wa nyuma w’amashuri yisumbuye, nubwo abayobozi b’ishuri nigagaho nari narababwiye ko nshaka kwiga iby’ubuganga ahantu nigaga i Burundi hari ishami muri Kaminuza y’u Burundi bitaga ‘Polytechnique’ abantu barijyagamo rero ari uko bakoze ibizamini kandi ababitsindaga byaheshaga amanota ishuri bizeho.

Baranyinginze ngo njye gukora ikizamini, bati nubwo tuzi ko utaziga muri Polytechnique wajyayo gusa ku bw’izina ry’ishuri ryacu. Njyayo hanyuma ndagikora ndagitsinda mba uwa mbere mu Burundi.

Ubwo rero haza n’igitutu cyo kugira ngo nige muri Polytechnique naho habagamo ishami ry’imibare, ubwo ubuvuzi buncika butyo [...] Nize imibare gutyo.

Uyiga uyikunda?

Dr Murigande: Yego narayikundaga kuko narayishoboraga. Narinze ndangiza ntasibiye, ntasubiyemo isomo na rimwe kandi natsindaga mu cyiciro cya mbere.

Abantu benshi batinya Imibare, ese Imibare ni iyo gutinywa?

Dr Murigande: Oya! Ntabwo imibare ari iyo gutinywa ahubwo buriya abantu bayitinya kubera bayigishwa nabi, buriya ugiye kureba abantu bose batinya imibare, biba byaraturutse ku kintu bahuriranye nacyo akagira atya akigishwa n’umwarimu wigisha nabi, noneho akazinukwa imibare, cyangwa se hari n’abarimu bagira amagambo mabi akamubwira ati wowe ntabwo uteze kuzamenya imibare […] Noneho ugasanga kubera ko umwalimu yabwiye umunyeshuri ngo wowe ntuteze kuzumva imibare ugasanga abantu barayitinye.

Kuki mwifuje gukomeza kugera ku Mpamyabumenyi y’ikirenga kandi mu gihe cyanyu baravugaga ko ufite icyiciro cya kabiri cya Kaminuza ari umukandida ku mwanya wa Minisitiri [Tout licencien est candidat Ministre]?

Dr Murigande: Urumva njyewe nta nubwo nari candidat Ministre kuko nta n’igihugu nagiraga [yari impunzi], ibyo ntabwo byangirirwagaho, urumva kugira ngo mbone umurimo nagombaga kwiga ashoboka yose.

Urumva rero kubera nari mbishoboye urumva nagiye mu Bubiligi mbonye Buruse y’Ishami ry’Umuryango w’Abibumbye ryita ku Mpunzi, nayo nayibonye ku bw’ubuntu bw’Imana kuko niyo buruse ya mbere UNHCR yari itanze yo kujya mu Bubiligi, iyihaye impunzi.

Guverinoma y’u Bubiligi yari yemereye UNHCR buruse ebyiri, zo guha impunzi zo muri Afurika. Hanyuma mbona impapuro ndazuzuza, ubwo hari n’abandi bazujuje b’impunzi. Nyewe n’Umunya-Ethiopie wari warahungiye muri Sudani turayibona.

Iyo warangizaga icyiciro wagombaga gutaha hanyuma igihugu kikazagusabira gukomeza, noneho njyewe ndangije icyiciro cya Kabiri, mu Kigo cyarebaga iby’Iterambere cy’Ababiligi baravuga ngo iriya buruse wabonye ntabwo twongeye kuzitanga nyuma yawe nk’uko tutari twazitanze mbere yawe.

Nusubirayo ntabwo UNHCR izongera kugusabira kuko nta zindi tugiye gutanga, wowe hita usaba niba twaguha iy’Impamyabumenyi y’Ikirenga.

Hanyuma ndasaba mbona n’ibyangombwa binshyigikira by’abarimu banyigishaga, mpita nkomerezaho ngira n’Impamyabumenyi y’Ikirenga. Ni uko nayibonye kuko nari mbishoboye hanyuma hakabaho n’ubwo buryo.

Hari igihe ubuhanga nk’ubwo buba ari uruhererekane mu muryango. Ese hari ab’iwanyu ubukomoraho?

Dr Murigande: Urumva ari Papa ari Mama ntibari barigeze biga. Ariko kutiga si ukuvuga ko umuntu aba adashoboye ahubwo ni uko batari barigeze babona uburyo bwo kwiga. Ubwo rero sinamenya niba iyo baza kwiga bari kumenya imibare.

Hanyuma mukomoje kuri uwo mwarimu wakubwiye uti aya mahirwe yabayeho kandi nyuma ntazakomeza yafatirane. Aba bajyanama mu burezi bareba umunyeshuri bakamugira inama uyu munsi murababona?

Murigande: Ikintu kimwe navuga ni uko burya umwarimu wigisha kandi akunda umwuga, akunda abanyeshuri, iyo agize amahirwe akabona umwana w’umuhanga yumva ntacyo atakora kugira ngo uwo mwana w’umuhanga agire amahirwe yose yatuma agera kure hashoboka. N’uyu munsi rero mu burezi bwacu abo bantu barahari.

Uyu munsi uri mu buyobozi bwa Kaminuza ku nshuro kabiri, kugira ngo Kaminuza yubake izina bisaba iki?

Dr Murigande: Kubaka izina bitwara igihe ariko igihe cyonyine nticyubaka izina, ibyo ukora muri icyo gihe nibyo bikubakira izina. Kaminuza rero igomba kugira abantu bazi ubwenge bigisha neza bagakora ubushakashatsi bahagije noneho kubera kwigisha neza, bagashyira ku isoko ry’umurimo abantu bize neza. Bashobora gukemura ibibazo umuryango mugari ufite, ibyo bikayubakira izina.

N’ubushakashatsi bukozwe kandi bugatangazwa mu itangazabushakashatsi buragenda bukagera ku Isi hose, noneho n’abashakashatsi hirya no hino, bagatangira kubuvuga waba ukora ubushakashatsi ukavuga uti nk’uko naka wo kuri Kaminuza y’u Rwanda yabyerekanye. Uko bagenda bakuvuga gutyo bituma rero wubaka izina.

Nk’ubu mfashe urugero rwa Kaminuza y’u Rwanda, uyu munsi Kaminuza y’u Rwanda kuko iri mu Rwanda ntitukajye twiyibagiza aho iri. Dufite abantu bafite Imyamyabumenyi y’ikirenga (PhD) bigisha muri Kaminuza y’u Rwanda 330 ku bantu bigisha muri Kaminuza y’u Rwanda bagera ku 1,300 urumva baracyari 26%.

Izindi Kaminuza z’i Burayi na Amerika nta muntu wigisha adafite Imyamyabumenyi y’ikirenga kereka nk’umuntu batumira kubera ko ari umuyobozi w’ikigo runaka umaze imyaka myinshi ari umuyobozi w’ikigo runaka noneho akaza kwigisha kubera ubunararibonye mu kuyobora ibigo mu mirimo akora, abo nibo bonyine bashobora kwigisha muri Kaminuza badafite Imyampabumenyi y’ikirenga.

Urumva twebwe rero turacyafite urugendo rurerure, haba mu kwigisha neza ndetse no gukora ubushakashatsi kuko ubundi abantu babukora ni abantu b’aba Dogiteri kuko iyo bazikorera nibwo bakora ubushakshatsi, noneho bikabaviramo kubukunda no kumenya uburyo bukorwa.

26% ni bake cyane ni ukubera iki? Ni amikoro ni abantu badahari ni ukubera iki?

Dr Murigande: Navuga ko ari impamvu nk’ebyiri. Icya mbere urebye Kaminuza y’u Rwanda aho ituruka, kuko ituruka nyine muri uru Rwanda rwa nyuma ya Jenoside, abantu bari bafite Impamyabumenyi z’ikirenga bari bake cyane.

Kaminuza y’u Rwanda ya mbere ya Jenoside, yatangiye mu 1963 kugeza 1993 bucya Jenoside iba, yari yarigishije abantu bayirangijemo bagera ku 1962. Uyu munsi dushyira ku isoko 9,500, urumva iyo Kaminuza yari iriho?. Rero noneho icyaje no kuyihuhura Abatutsi barimo barabishe, bicwa n’abo bigana. Urumva Abatutsi twarababuze n’abo biganaga turababura kuko babaye abicanyi bamwe barahunga, abandi barafungwa mu by’ukuri nta Kaminuza twasanze twahasanze inzu.

Impamvu imibare itazamutse, urumva twari dufite Abadogiteri bakeya, ntabwo twashoboraga gutangira, Porogaramu za Dogitora imbere mu gihugu. Kugira ngo abantu bige icyiciro cya Gatatu cya Kaminuza n’Imyamyabumenyi y’ikirenga, bagombaga kujya hanze kandi kujya kwiga hanze bitwara amafaranga menshi.

Ubu rero nubwo bakiri bake dufite urufatiro, rukomeye rugiye kudufasha noneho kwihuta kuko ubu twatangiye Porogaramu z’Impamyabumenyi z’ikirenga nyinshi, zizatuma abantu bigira hano ku mafaranga makeya.

No muri abo 26% dufite, abagore ni bake cyane, ubu bigiye kubaha uburyo bwo kwiga noneho n’umubare wabo uzamuke kimwe n’uwa basaza babo.

Muvuga iki ku ireme ry’uburezi?

Dr Murigande: Hari ibintu nka bitatu cyangwa bine byahungabanyije ireme ry’uburezi. Icya mbere ni uko abantu benshi bajya mu kwigisha, ntabwo bajyamo babikunze cyane, ntabwo ari ryo hitamo ryabo rya mbere, ikindi abenshi bajyagamo babaga ari bantu bake cyane muri biriya bizamini birangiza icyiciro rusange, abajyagamo ni abantu babaga bari mu cyiciro cya Kane. Urumva twabaga twubaka umusingi mubi.

Hagiyemo abantu badashoboye, bagize kutabikunda, bagize kutabishobora, ubwo rero nta kintu batanga. Hanyuma rero uburezi bugapfa mu ifatizo.

Hejuru y’icyo kintu rero hajemo n’uko twafashe icyemezo cy’uko bigisha mu Cyongereza batakizi kandi burya kwigisha ni ngombwa ngo ube wumva neza ururimi wigishamo kuko iyo wigisha umunyeshuri uramubwira atakumva cyangwa wabona ajijinganya ukamubwira uti mu yandi magambo nashakaga kukubwira iki, kugeza ubwo ugera ku magambo atuma yumva neza.

Rero iyo utumva ururimi, ntushobora kubona andi magambo kuko n’aya mbere ntuba wayabonye. Ibyo bituma abanyeshuri ibyo biga batabyumva neza n’ururimi bigamo ntibarumenye neza kuko barwigishijwe n’abataruzi.

Dr. Murigande uri umurokore ukaba n’Umunyapolitiki, ibyo bintu birahura?

Dr Murigande: Njye mbona bihura, iyo umuntu akijijwe ntabwo agomba kuva mu Isi, n’umwami Yesu yaravuze ngo mbatumye mu Isi muzabe mu Isi mutari ab’Isi mudakora ibyaha mugerageza kwirinda icyaha, mukunda abantu mukora neza, mutiba, mutabeshya, kandi ntabwo yavuze ngo aha ho mwoye kuzahagera kuko ubwami bw’Imana Umwami Yesu yaje kuzana yashatse kubuzana hose, haba ari muri Politiki haba ari mu bucuruzi, haba ari muri siporo, haba ari mu Itangazamakuru hose turahatumwe nk’abantu bizera kugira ngo tuhageze ubwami bw’Imana.

Kandi ijambo ry’imana ritwereka abantu bakoze Politiki kandi bakayikora neza. Uhereye kuri ba Mosi wenda Mosi we ni uwa vuba ukajya kureba na ba Yozefu babaye ba Minisitiri b’Intebe muri Egiputa mu gihugu kitari n’icyabo. Hari na ba Dawidi yari umwami, hari umuntu se ukora Politiki kurusha umwami.

Abakunze kuvuga ngo ibya Kayizari mu bihe Kayizari iby’Imana mu bihe Imana?

Dr Murigande: Kayizari ntabwo yavugaga ngo ibya Politiki mubihe Politiki, uribuka ko yabivugiye ku musoro, umusoro ni uwa leta ugomba kuwuha leta nyine, ariko iyo turiho dusengera abantu bari muri Politiki kuko nibaza ko abarokore babasabira kugira ngo bahure n’Imana bamenyanye nayo bakizwe bazajye mu ijuru, ntabwo tubasengera ngo bakizwe noneho bave mu byo bakoraga.

Ntabwo Politiki wayirekera ku batazi Imana. Ahubwo tugize Imana bose bamenya Imana noneho bagakurikiza ibyo itubwira.

Hari ijambo mwigeze kuvuga rikwira hose aho umunyamakuru yari ababajije, ngo uko ni ukuri kw’Imana?

Dr Murigande: Buriya abantu babyumvise nabi, reka nongere nsobanure uko nabivuze. Twari mu kiganiro muri studio ya BBC icyo gihe hari mu 2003 hashize igihe ingabo z’u Rwanda zivuye muri Congo, ariko icyo gihe ingabo ziri muri Congo twagiranye ibibazo na Uganda cyane.

Noneho icyo gihe Uganda itangira kujya ibwira itangazamakuru ngo buriya barabehsya ntitwavuyeyo. Ngo ndetse turarwanira muri Ituri kandi aho muri Ituri twari twarahabarekeye kuva kera, na mbere yuko tuva muri Congo.

Ariko kugira ngo bonone izina ry’u Rwanda, batangira kuvuga ngo turarwanira muri Ituri. Noneho barambaza ngo ingabo z’u Rwanda zaba ziri muri Ituri?

Ndamuhakanira ndamubwira nti nta ngabo z’u Rwanda ziri muri Ituri ndamubwira nti n’izari muri Congo zavuyemo ku mugaragaro.

Noneho arambaza ngo uko ni ukuri kw’Imana? Noneho ndamubwira nti uko ni ukuri kw’impamo nti ukuri kw’Imana kuba muri Bibiliya. Kuko ibyo ntabwo ari ukuri kw’Imana nyine ukuri kw’Imana kuba muri Bibiliya ariko uko ni ukuri kw’impamo niko ibintu byari biri icyo gihe.

Ubwo nyine abantu baravuze ngo Murigande ashobora kuba yari azi ko ingabo z’u Rwanda ziri muri Ituri, akanga kubivuga noneho akavuga ngo uko ni ukuri kw’impamo. Iyo mvuga ko ari ukuri kw’Imana nari kuba mbeshye nyine. None se uko ni ukuri kw’Imana njye ndi Imana?.

Ese icyo gihe iyo ziza kuba zariyo ariko udakwiye kubyemera nk’uwari Minisitiri w’Ububanyi n’amahanga, icyo gihe igisubizo cyari kuba ikihe nk’Umukristo?

Dr Murigande: Reka nkubwire, ko umwami Yesu yabwiye abigishwa be ngo bazabajyana mu nkiko, ngo ariko nimujyayo ntimuzahangayikishwe n’icyo muzavuga. Umwuka wera azabaha icyo kuvuga muri icyo gihe.

Ubwo rero singiye gusubiza ibintu byo gukekeranya umunsi nzahura n’ikibazo nk’icyo umwuka wera azampa icyo kuvuga kijyanye n’uko mba namusabye kubana nanjye mu byo nkora.

Dr Charles Murigande afite imyaka 61, muri yo 41 ayimaze ari umugabo ‘ukijijwe’, abo bakunda kwita Abarokore. Ubu ni umukristo muri Assemblée de Dieu.

Dr Murigande amaze igihe kinini muri politiki n'uburezi bw'u Rwanda

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