Ibi bibazo by’umwuka mubi ukomeje gufata indi ntera hagati y’u Rwanda na Congo ni kimwe mu byaranze Ikiganiro Perezida Kagame yagiranye na France24, kigasohoka kuri uyu wa Kane.

Cyagarutse kandi ku zindi ngingo zirimo amatora ateganyijwe mu Rwanda.

France 24: Mu kiganiro giheruka, Perezida Tshisekedi yavuze ko ibiri kubera mu Burasirazuba bwa RDC ari Jenoside yikubye inshuro 10 mu bubi iyabaye mu Rwanda mu 1994, ndetse agutunga urutoki avuga ko ukwiriye ibirenze Urukiko Mpuzamahanga mpanyabyaha, ni iki mwasubiza?

Perezida Kagame: Ntabwo ushobora gusubiza ibintu byose umuntu avuze byaba gukabya cyangwa ibinyoma, abantu bari guhunga ibibazo byabo ahubwo bakabigereka ku bandi, ibyo bihuye neza n’iki kibazo.

Utekereza ko ijambo Jenoside ritaje ku bw’impanuka…?

Ntabwo navuga kuri ibyo ngo nirengagize gusobanura neza ikibazo kiri kuba. Ibibazo byo mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo bikwiriye kumvikana neza cyane no kuri uwo muntu uyoboye kiriya gihugu, asa n’umuntu nibura ufite ubwenge bumwibutsa mu buryo burobanuye icyo kwita ibiri kubera hariya, kubera ko mu Rwanda dufite impunzi ibihumbi 100 kandi bakomeza kuza, kandi benshi muri bo bahamaze imyaka irenga 20, ndetse bafite aho bahuriye n’iki kibazo kandi aba bantu batakaje imitungo yabo, ubutaka bwabo ndetse n’abo bafitanye isano n’inshuti zabo ziciwe mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo kubera abo bari bo.

Ishusho y’ibyabaye mu Rwanda mu 1994, uko imyaka ishira yaragiye ikurira mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo, abantu ibihumbi 100 ndi kuvuga, mu by'ukuri ni inshuro enye cyangwa eshatu z’abandi bari muri Uganda kandi ntekereza ko hari n’abandi bagiye ahandi, bakuwe aho batuye, mu mitungo yabo ndetse ubuzima bwabo burasenywa kuko biswe Abatutsi. Abatutsi bo muri Congo bagomba gufatwa nk’Abatutsi bo mu Rwanda mu 1994.

Kandi mu by'ukuri ni n’ibintu ubona iyo urebye n’imikoranire yubatswe mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo, hakazamo u Burundi ndetse n’imvugo zakozwe n’uwo muntu uvuga ibyo, mu ruhame mu bitangazamakuru avuga imvugo z’urwango, ubufasha buhabwa FDLR ari na yo yishe icyo gice cy’Abanyarwanda mu Rwanda.

Uburyo bihuza barangajwe imbere n’ubu buyobozi bwo muri Congo, kubyirengagiza ugashaka ku byita ikindi kintu, gituruka ahandi hantu ku bw’undi muntu ntekereza ko ugomba kuba hari icyo ubura mu buryo bw’imitekerereze.

Ushatse kuvuga ko adafite ishingiro…?

Aha nta nubwo ari we ndi kuvuga, ndi kuvuga n’umuntu uwo ari we wese wumva ibyo akaba yanatekereza ko afite ishingiro.

Hari ubuhuza buri kugirwamo uruhare na Angola bwo kugerageza guhuza ba Minisitiri b’Ububanyi n’Amahanga ndetse nawe na Perezida wa RDC, ibyo twumva bigaragaza ko ibi bitazakunda, cyangwa muracyafite icyizere?

Ntabwo mbizi ariko twebwe, twavuze ibintu tudaca ku ruhande, hari ibiganiro byo mu Karere kacu, hari ibiganiro bya Luanda muri Angola, habayeho n’ibiganiro bya Nairobi muri Kenya kandi habayeho n’ubundi buryo bwo kugerageza gufasha gukemura ikibazo.

Ariko nta musaruro byatanze, sibyo?

Yego ariko ku Rwanda buri gihe twaritabiriye kandi tugira uruhare mu buryo bwose dushoboye kugira ngo bitange umusaruro ariko Congo isa n’aho ifite ibindi bitekerezo kuko Ingabo z’Umuryango wa Afurika y’Iburasirazuba zajyanywe hariya kugira ngo zifashe, bucya azirukana azana irindi tsinda yahisemo ry’abo yari yizeye ko bagiye kumurwanirira kugira ngo abashe gukomeza ibyo amaze igihe akora, azana Ingabo za SADC, Ingabo z’u Burundi azitandukanye n’iza EAC, hari n’abandi.

Ibintu byose byajemo urujijo ariko ruri guterwa n’abo bantu bari gusakuza bavuga ko bijujutira ibibazo.

Uracyiteguye guhura na we amaso ku maso, nubwo hari ibyo bibazo byose uvuze?

Nabonye ari we ushyiraho amabwiriza, ntabwo nigeze nshyiraho amabwiriza. Ubwo natumirwaga i Luanda mu kugirana ibiganiro ku Burasirazuba bwa Congo na Congo muri rusange ku bibazo biri hagati yabo n’u Rwanda, nari mpari. Nyuma hari inama zo ku rwego rwa Minisiteri zagombaga gutegura igihe tuzahurira, Ushobora kubaza uruhande rwa Angola nari niteguye guhura n’uwo ari we wese.

Ese uracyiteguye, cyangwa amazi yamaze kurenga inkombe, watakaje icyizere?

Ntabwo ntekerezo ko icyo kibazo ari cyo cy’ingenzi cyane kubera ko birasa n’aho uri gutuma nsubiramo ibyo navuze. Nakubwiye ko buri gihe nahoze kandi mpora niteguye, iyo nza kuba ntiteguye nari kukubwira nti siniteguye, ariko ibyo ntabwo ari byo nakubwiye.

Mu mezi ashize Loni, Amerika, u Bufaransa n’Umuryango w’Ubumwe bw’u Burayi byashinje u Rwanda ibitari ugufasha M23 gusa, ahubwo no kuba mu buryo butaziguye hari ibikorwa by’ingabo muri Congo. Hari raporo y’inzobere zo muri Loni ivuga ko Ingabo z’u Rwanda ziri muri Congo, ibi ni byo?

Kubera iki u Rwanda rwajya muri Congo cyangwa rugashyigikira M23? Icyo kibazo kigomba kubazwa, n’uwo ari we wese ushaka kumva ikibazo, nyuma akaba yagikemura. Kubera ko ugomba kumva M23 ni ba nde? Kuki bavutse? U Rwanda ntabwo rwaremye M23 yaremwe na RDC.

Ariko ibyo ni byo (ko M23 yaremwe n’u Rwanda) umuryango mpuzamahanga uvuga?

Kurema M23? Ntabwo ntekereza ko nigeze numva bavuga ko ari twe twabaremye (M23). Ibyo bavuze ni uko tubashyigikira, kuri njye ikibazo ni uko ubwo dushyigikiye umutwe uhari, kubera? Mbere na mbere niba ihari kuki tutareba impamvu muzi y’iki kibazo.

Ntabwo ukwiriye kwemera ibyo bavuga byose kuko ari umuryango mpuzamahanga, ugomba kuba ufite ibimenyetso, iyi ni yo mpamvu dukomeza kubagaragariza ibi, ni gute basobanura ko dufite ibihumbi amagana by’impunzi, abantu bahigwa mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo kubera abo bar ibo? None ubu barashaka kubahindura Abanyarwanda kandi ari Abanye-Congo […].

Utekereza ko ibibazo by’umutekano mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo ari ikibazo ku mutekano w’u Rwanda ku buryo rushobora gufata ingamba zo kwirwanaho?

Twabivuze ku mugaragaro, nta banga ririmo. Biteye impungenge kuba Congo iri kwihunza ibibazo byayo, ibibazo by’abaturage bayo yambuye uburenganzira bwose ikabica, ikabahohotera. Hari imvugo z’urwango, hari ingengabitekerezo ya Jenoside iri gukwirakwizwa mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo.

Ibi ntabwo ari ibintu bipfa kubaho gutyo gusa. Hari iryo hohoterwa rikorerwa aba baturage bitwa Abatutsi bityo ko ibigomba kubabaho bikwiriye kumera nk’ibyabaye ku bo mu Rwanda mu 1994. Hari n’umusanzu baha FDLR ushingiye ku ngengabitekerezo ya Jenoside, bamazeyo imyaka 30. None se uwo muryango mpuzamahanga urabaza iki?

Ariko basabye RDC kwitandukanya na FDLR?

None se bagomba kubinginga? Ni nko kubwira Congo ngo icyo kibazo mugikemure niba mubishaka nimutanabikora turi kumwe. Kuri twe rero ikibazo wakabaye ubaza: Ese ibi bibangamiye umutekano wacu? Ni ikibazo rwose. Hanyuma se dukwiriye kugira icyo tubikoraho? Tuzabikemura mu buryo dutekereza ko ari bwo bwa nyabwo.

Intambara na Congo irashoboka?

Ubajije ikibazo kijyanye n’icyo Tshisekedi yagiye agarukaho. Wowe n’abandi yababwiye ko azazana intambara mu Rwanda agakuraho Guverinoma n’ibindi. Niba umuntu avuga ibintu nk’ibyo mu bihe nk’ibi, ku ruhande rumwe ushobora kwibwira ko ari kwikinira cyangwa se nta kindi afite cyo kuvuga. Ku rundi ruhande urebye amateka yacu n’ubunararibonye dufite, nta kintu na kimwe dukinisha.

Bivuze ko mwiteguye kurwana bibaye ngombwa?

Byaba ko ibibera mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo bigeze ku butaka bwacu cyangwa se ikindi cyose, twiteguye kwirwanaho. Kuko n’ubundi turi aha kuko twaharaniye uburenganzira bwacu. Ntabwo twatinya kuvuga ko hagize utubangamira nta banga ririmo, twiteguye kwirwanaho.

Nta bwoba ufite ko ibihugu byo mu Burengerazuba bw'Isi byabafatira ibihano ku bw’ingabo z’u Rwanda bivugwa ko ziri muri Congo?

Reka nkubwire, ukurikije amateka yacu, uko ibintu byagiye bihinduka […] nta cyadutera ubwoba.

Tariki 15 Nyakanga hari amatora, uziyamamaza hamwe n’abandi babiri. Nta we utavuga rumwe na Leta ugaragara urimo. Kuki u Rwanda nta hangana rikomeye rihagarara?

Abatavuga rumwe na Leta hari abahari n'ubwo uvuga ko ari bake, sinzi niba hari umubare runaka umuntu akwiriye kuba afite […] Niba ushaka kumenya ibibera mu Rwanda, ukwiriye kubanza kumva uko ibintu bikorwa. Uko ibintu bikorwa iwacu, ntaho bitaniye n‘ibibera ahandi.

Kuba utorwa hejuru ya 90% ubona ari ibintu byiza ku Rwanda?

Uko ibintu bimeze bitandukanye n’ahandi. Ntacyo bintwaye kuba hari uwatorwa n’abantu 15% niba iwabo ari ko bimeze. Bigutwaye iki kuba umuntu yatorwa na 90% niba iwabo ariko bimeze?

Hari ibinyamakuru biherutse kwishyira hamwe bisohora inkuru ziswe ‘Rwanda Classified’ zishinja u Rwanda kugirira nabi abanyamakuru n’abatavuga rumwe na Leta…

Ibyo bakoze si ugushaka kugaragaza ukuri kuko nta perereza na mba bigeze bakora. Icyakora bigaragaza aho bakomoka. Buri gihe ni ukwiyenza, ubwirasi. N’ubu twicaye nk’aha, uzasanga umunyamakuru muri ibyo bihugu yishimiye kungaragaza nabi, antuka hanyuma akitwa intwari.